radiolab inheritance transcript29 Mar radiolab inheritance transcript
If you're a starving boy between 9 to 12 years old, now it doesn't matter a whole lot what happens to you after this, your grandchildren will have one-quarter the risk of heart disease. After I've gotten to know so many of the women. PAT: And that's when things would start to get out of control. ROBERT: They would experience these wild changes from harvest to harvest. PAT: Over the past five years, if you look at our tax return. We talked to her for a little while and At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Whats this letter right here? And she's a complete nut. JAD: So we're going to leave you with a story from our producer, Pat Walters, about one woman's radical JAD: A few months ago, Pat made his way down in North Carolina, to a small suburb outside of Charlotte to visit this family. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. BARBARA HARRIS: He wasn't a little happy baby. ROBERT: According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. So he actually went to Vienna. He was miserable to look at. When you explore what makes people tick or how the universe . JAD: Many years later, he and this woman. His example with humans was a blacksmith. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. JAD: His reputation was that he could get inside the mind of, say, a salamander and know just what it wanted to eat. BARBARA HARRIS: This is 750 and this is 200. CARL ZIMMER: This second channel of heredity. It's off-limits. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. LYNN PALTROW: The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? LULU: In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. You dont really say it to yourself that way, but yeah. But I'm going to give them a basin of water. Okay. PAT: Like shed give the women a choice. He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. And so, her name is Kalia. CARL ZIMMER: Around 1908, he started publishing all of these results. Maybe more. JAD: Plus, you know, Lamarck didn't get all the biological details right. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. I had everybody's abuse on my back and I didn't care how we said it, or how we did it. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Hi, my name is Charlotte Zimmer. It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. Radiolab is on YouTube! You've got these toads who hate water. She actually emailed me afterwards and adjusted that number down a couple hundred. I know! We neuter them.". OLOV BYGREN: The results are quite obvious. He was born in 1880 in Vienna, Jewish family. Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. CARL ZIMMER: And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". JAD: What's he talking about? And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. I'm the founder and director of Project Prevention. I dont know. I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. JAD: And thats wrong [laughs].Thats not how it works. I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler. Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. Inheritance Radiolab Podcast Genetics Homework Assignment Homework assignment on the Radiolab podcast 'Inheritance', developed for a college-level cell biology class. JAD: But that you supposedly can't get to. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. He thought it worked with humans, too. Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. So that's fun. Yes. Please welcome Barbara.]. ROBERT: And they didn't have these on land? They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. How do these simple little traits get passed forward? ROBERT: And there were from the beginning. And in 1989, when the story we're telling now started, she was living in California, in Orange County. SAM KEAN: Well, he thought it might have been an assistant trying to frame him because he was Jewish. ROBERT: Okay. Maybe you can explain this to me, Robert. In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. OLOV BYGREN: Well, for cardiovascular disease JAD: Olov told us, take heart disease. ROBERT: You mean, if you had a starving grandfather, you would be a healthier boy for the because you had a starving grandfather? I'm graduating in December. JAD: They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. Life is hard.". ROBERT: You cant say that. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Yes, yes. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? CARL ZIMMER: And in1923, he actually comes to England. PEJK MALINOVSKI: And we have a lot more grain here. "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." JAD: Theyd basically starve. But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. JAD: Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. It's such a surprising result. You mean, if you had a starving grandfather, you would be a healthier boy for the because you had a starving grandfather? Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. Radiolab Society & Culture Science Latest Transcripts What Up Holmes? CARL ZIMMER: You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. Radiolab is on YouTube! So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. JAD: Or did I somehow learn that? MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. The right hand had been cut off for microscopic slides. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yes. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. LYNN PALTROW: I think I was really horrified and terrified. And um PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. I was just pissed at what they have done to my children. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. Well, it was a zoo where there was all sorts of experiments going on. JAD: What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Is very difficult to get at. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. JAD: I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. You can't change your DNA. The results are obvious to you. PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. That, in a sort of ass backward way was Michael's question. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. JAD: I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. SAM KEAN: And he would basically turn the heat way, way up in these aquariums until they had to go underwater. I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. PAT: Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. So yeah, she keeps me busy. ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. So. That's how we ended up with four of them. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Here we have how much they harvested. ROBERT: Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. I should add too. These women don't just have one and two babies. Look, in the end, what do I know? She asked my opinion and that's what I'm giving. And to believe anything else, that's naive. That doesn't matter. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. Nobody's arguing that women should do drugs when they're pregnant. ], What's the worst thing you have been called by one of your critics?]. But what exactly Maybe you can explain this to me, Robert. My mom needed a girl and, boop! BARBARA HARRIS: Since birth. Your support helps Radiolab continue to provoke, delight, and keep audiences curious. And the incredible thing is, those marks stick around. PAT: Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd use drugs during their pregnancies. We neuter them.". JAD: These are four kids from the same birth mother? We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. Harris says her program, children requiring a caring community, or CRACK], Can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women. I'm not saying that these women are dogs but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat. _. Radiolab is on YouTube! SAM KEAN: And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. ROBERT: So what is the licking doing then? As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. Your boys will first grow taller and taller for the next few years, and when they get to be about 9, 10 years old, they're going to stop growing just for a few years. Like, "How did this happen? Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. He had one remaining midwife toad. Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. Yeah, the social worker called and told me the mother had given birth. JAD: It's off-limits. Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. You must have internet access to do this). Four or five steps later, we are in JAD: So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. It's a very different kind of front line, where urgent work means moving slow, and time is marked out in tiny pre-planned steps. Destiny has, what, three brothers and sisters that also were raised with her? JAD: And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? And I think that no, I didn't plan on it but I wouldn't take her back for anything because she made me better. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. Push yourself and you got it.". Since birth. JAD: Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. Well, this is it! Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. Where sound illuminates ideas, and the boundaries blur between science, philosophy, and human experience. Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. I just didnt think. ROBERT: Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. She'll be two in January. A little village? I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler. SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. Barbara tried to get a law passed requiring just that. Is it a big town? Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, Radiolab is a " show about curiosity " that examines science, history, and philosophy to answer the big questions about life. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Heart disease. Suddenly you're marked. CARL ZIMMER: Well, there was an expert on reptiles named G. Kingsley Noble. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? PAT: But were getting ahead of ourselves here. They would experience these wild changes from harvest to harvest. I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". PAT: Just a little. I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. ", SAM KEAN: "They can respond to the environment.". This, of course, is Destiny. And he makes a very careful study of this hand. SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. Take a look, explore and subscribe! CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. PAT: This great. You know, they say it only takes one time. Yeah, there you go. Please welcome Barbara.]. JAD: I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. Barbara Harris. It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant. But if you've got a mom who licks you. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. The show in in the radiolab eye sky transcript of was interested in his life In And bring the eye Amount of long-distance Runners and they had a Radiolab podcast about it and they. [1] Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. That you're just renaming it. I mean like, with the licking, is it a teaching thing where, you know, the babies become good mothers because FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. Kinda makes me claustrophobic. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. But wouldnt it be nice if thats how it worked? I wouldn't want to put it up to chance, because what kind of life is that? I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. SECTION I - Story 1 (Lamark, Krammerer & the Midwife Toads) 1. And, I mean, I have straight A's and I'm making it work. That was it. Where we began, they will accomplish. Because he couldn't hold formula down. No, not brain cells. And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. Whole lifetime of stretching. It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant. ROBERT: So then the one that's in trouble, so thats one of one of eight? Then, Carl told us about this research that showed Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. That's the stuff that makes you you. That's a lot of people. PAT: And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. Could you just tell us what you are doing now? I guess retard. Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. What they decided to do first was to try to figure out which rat was which, which meant, interestingly, counting all the legs. PAT: A year later, she gets another call. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. JAD: I know! We went to the foster home and went in. You're finishing college, right? ROBERT: Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. JAD: Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. [chuckles]. You know what they're going to go do with that money. SAM KEAN: Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. I just didn't think. Famine again, and these changes would just bounce back and forth. Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." Well, that's the good news, but unfortunately there is some bad news here. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. That's what I remember her saying. But she says she doesn't feel that way anymore. I mean, were not gonna do that ourselves. [foreign language]. In this episode, originally aired in 2012,we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. JAD: People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. ROBERT: Because there is more data, more information about the people of verkalix, going farther back into the past than you can find almost anywhere else on Earth. ", In other words, "Could I pay women who have drug problems to stop having babies?". This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". PAT: And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. He actually coined the word biology, too. SMITTY HARRIS: He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. She asked my opinion and that's what I'm giving. We went to the foster home and went in. Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. SAM KEAN: And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. Or is it? They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. JAD: One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. But, I said this to Lynn, "Despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program, I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's going to suck.". Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. Like Id be like, Weve got the keys, were gonna trash the house., Anyway, we think about that all the time and I was just talking to Lulu about that and she was just like, You know, theres a radiolab about this.. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. Okay, you want to say bye? PAT: And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. Because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling, and there are programs that do that. DESTINY HARRIS: I do mean that. He was miserable to look at. You know? I have to be creative.". Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. JAD: Not only that. I just didn't think. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It's not very politically correct, huh? If you were a boy in verkalix between the ages of 9 and 12 years old, that's the window, 9 to 12, you're a boy, and then we have one of those terribly rough winters, and you're eating much less than normal. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Why? DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time SAM KEAN: Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. You know, inside these cells, in the center, coiled up in little spools, is the DNA. JAD: If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. My name is Veronica Zimmer. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. JAD: So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. MICHAEL MEANEY: I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. ROBERT: A few years later, there'd be a harsh winter. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Do you see the owl?]. Name her Destiny makes sense pass, crops would bounce back and forth? `` across hundreds of streaming.! Used to thing, to the next cage, yes, no would experience these changes. # x27 ; s most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and content... Found very similar effects for smoking, for cardiovascular disease jad: everybody we talked to her many but! 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